Content Warning: TWERF nonsense, degendering, “male-socialization” myth discussion, suicide, sexual violence, all kinds of intense shit re:transmisogyny.
can’t understand how people can deny that trans women were never socialized male, that’s a nice trick, that’s like me, an obnoxious american, moving to another country but then denying that i was ever american or raised as an american as i never related to the place and felt…
i didn’t say there isn’t a plurality of experiences in being a woman or in being an american. i was speaking in the singular and relating how my thoughts, behavior and beliefs have been shaped by my culture, i used “obnoxious american” to be self deprecating and to be accurate about myself and what this country is in the world. you don’t want to be included in the term “obnoxious american”? don’t include yourself, again i was speaking in the singular
But as you say who we are and how we are perceived in our cultures leads us to be treated differently and to different life experiences. I agree and i think that if was born a cis white obnoxious male fool and for the bulk of my adult life i lived as a male, served in the military and was a husband and a father till i transitioned at age 40, i would’ve been socialized as a cis white obnoxious male fool for the majority of my life. this cis-white-obnoxious-male-fool socialization would shape my thoughts, behavior and beliefs.
—note: this post was co-authored by b8l and unobject—
okay so im cutting you short because its all basically just bigoted nonsense anyway, but before you whine about how im cutting you off and blah blah blah, anyone is more than welcome to click the link to read the garbage you posted. however, i don’t recommend it to trans women for the fact that its just your typical twerf nonsense about how older trans women are evil and how trans women who transition in their forties or above are evil and there’s no need to torture yourselves over it, and i don’t recommend it to allies because you probably don’t know how to deconstruct it anyway.
that said, the problem is, your logic is still severely flawed. once again, barring the nonsense about trans women, you started okay by admitting that you were speaking from a singular and extremely privileged position when saying all americans are like you (white entitled shitwads).
however, you seemed to let that momentary flash of understanding slip away quite rapidly when you completely ignored the extrapolation of the logic, which i pointed out to you in my first post. the logic goes as such:
- A: socialization as an american and socialization as a man function in the same exact ways, and since:
- B: all americans are socialized similarly to be obnoxious americans, and:
- C: men are also socialized to be obnoxious, therefore:
- B: all people assigned male are socialized to be obnoxious men
ignoring for a moment that this is a false equivalence between man and male assigned, this logic is flawed such that
- A: you are speaking from a very narrow and privileged position, and
- B: not all american residents are socialized in your privileged position, so
- C: not all americans are socialized to be obnoxious white people like you
taking this logic, and assuming the false equivalence in your first post,
- D: since it is determined you are speaking from false foundations (that all americans are x so all male-assigned people are x)
- it necessarily states that E: all male-assigned people are NOT socialized the same
that is, again, if the equivalence between male and male-assigned exists. which it does not. let me explain why beginning with this statement from your post:
But as you say who we are and how we are perceived in our cultures leads us to be treated differently and to different life experiences.
false. i never said that, and i never will say that. superficial perception is only a very small part of how we are socialized in capital, and is constantly being modified by other aspects of how the social integrates: such as, our internal identifications with various social models. this is huge. this is how we internally and externally relate to all people, all images produced by capital, ourselves, etc. and are related to. as a basic example, any woman watching on TV will see images of women and identify herself within them, relating to them, and taking in the ideas of what she is supposed to do and be. a woman takes in cues from her surrounding environment telling her what she is supposed to do and be. men also do this, seeing the same images of men asserting their power over women and knowing instead that it is their right, under the laws of patriarchy, to do so.
thus one situation, showing a man and a woman, will give the same messages, but different responses in a man vs. in a woman.
the phenomenon of seeing these images and internalizing power from it is what theorists call the “phallus”, or the ingrained sense of male entitlement and power. and the only people who experience this are cis men and trans men.
now i’m sure you will ask, what proof is there that this extra layer, this internal process of relating, actually exists such that trans women do NOT internalize the phallus, and instead internalize a woman-subject? i think the best example i can give you, which i’m sure you are ignorant to and will undoubtedly cause an aneurysm attempting to refute, is that if it were so that trans women were not socialized by patriarchy to be subjugated by men (and so, not one of them), then why would all of the images of trans women produced by capital that absolutely saturate our lives be what they are? these images include us being murdered, beaten, fetishized, exiled, humiliated, etc. every lesson to be learned when it comes to trans women, every message that patriarchy sends to us, from popular images to our closest relationships, is that we are meant to be tortured mercilessly until we are murdered. we are meant to be a fetish object. we are meant to be men’s scapegoat for enacting their hatred of cis women. we are meant to reproduce maleness, cis womanhood, and the heterosexual social, via our deaths, our suffering, our sexual assaults, our abuse, our humiliation, and our destruction.
and further, trans women are certainly not the only people who receive these messages: men and cis women too internalize how trans women should be treated, how they are allowed to relate to trans women, how they are allowed to take power over trans women and enact violence against us, because they are entitled to, albeit in different ways.
and so the dynamic is formed: trans women live their entire lives in complete terror of men and cis women.
this is why self-realization for trans women is not at all a simplistic experience of a man deciding to just change his gender or whatever, but is instead like the realization of being a survivor: an understanding of a trauma that has been continually denied but continuously present in one’s life and relations to oneself and everyone around them, and why they have been made vulnerable to certain forms of manipulation. trans women often reach a point where we look at our lives and realize that we are suffering and why. that is what discovering our selves is really about. in fact, it is not just like the realization of being a survivor, it IS the realization of being a survivor.
is this not how we define female socialization, as continuous gendering trauma? the idea that women are to be subjugated by men? and if it is so blatantly obvious that trans women are also treated thusly, that trans women are in all situations showered with violence, how can we argue that this is not the same thing, only compounded?
and why would patriarchy create such images if we would just bypass all that and internalize male entitlement instead? it wouldn’t. there would be no point. because why would patriarchy seek to destroy something that supported its final goal of male power?
that is the fate patriarchy has laid out for us, and is the gender we are socialized into.
now, what you are asserting, which is false, is that relation to the phallus, as internalization of male power and entitlement to women or subjugation to maleness and inferiority, is entirely determined by sex assignment. you are only half right here (which makes you completely wrong), as i hope i have demonstrated thoroughly in the previous section. what IS accurate is that our roles within patriarchy are determined by first, whether or not we are men, and second, what our use is for patriarchy based on what patriarchy has predetermined is appropriate for our sex assignment.
you are undoubtedly familiar with what white women are valued for, which is reproduction of maleness/power and the heterosexual family unit via marriage, childbirth, home-maintenance, as well as more complex issues. this is a realm almost exclusive to abled white cis women part. most other women are pushed into other reproductive roles - you may be familiar with some of them. the nanny and housekeeper for white families for black and latina women, the sex worker for poor women and women of color, the expendable target of extreme violence for women of color and lesbians, etc.
now what you clearly have chosen to remain ignorant of is what trans women’s role here is. trans women, failing the possibilities of the heterosexual family structure (the woman as homemaker), must be exiled in order for the hetero family unit (whose goal is reproduction of the male power via family) to succeed. i should mention here that the hetero family unit, which exists in service to male power, is a representative of productive society, and so exclusion from the family means exclusion from society as a whole. to continue: patriarchy is also in great need of scapegoats, or people for whom it can blame its problems - and what better targets than those who have no place in the heterosexual family unit. so first, we become, in essence, so thoroughly alienated as to become thoroughly erased from reality because the only thing that can exist in patriarchy is what functions in the hetero family unit. but because we are so alien to the hetero family unit, and yet we still remain, our presence is simultaneously hypervisible, so something must be done. we are then approached as the Root of All Evil so that the actual agents of patriarchal violence can get away with their actions. this is where our value is created. the reality of our lives as survivors of patriarchal violence disappears in the thick haze of gaslighting that serves to protect patriarchy from responsibility. this, of course, is the same process the patriarchy applies to all women that are considered undesirable or valueless.
so you can see, also, that the violence done to trans women that we have covered so far is not just a byproduct of patriarchy either, but is a necessary foundation for patriarchy to function. trans women must be dealt with, and in order for maleness to continue as it is, it means we must be destroyed.
this is the process at work here. i’m sure if you attempted to think about it, you would see the parallel between your actions and the dynamic outlined above.
now, knowing this, if you’d like me to more thoroughly address the idea of “perception”, which i’m sure you do, let me lay out the basic scenarios for you:
- passing, post-transition, stealth: internal alienation via transmisogyny, relative acceptance into society, violence from men, potential dysphoria/suicidalism
- passing, pre-transition/transitioning: internal alienation via transmisogyny, avoidance of integrating into social because of consequences of being outed, violence from men, dysphoria/suicidalism
- not-passing transitioning: internal and external alienation via transmisogyny, exile from society, heightened rates of violence from cis women and men, often heightened dysphoria/ suicidalism
- not-passing pre-transition: internal and sometimes external alienation via transmisogyny, violence from men and cis women, crushing dysphoria/suicidalism
to note: rarely are these situations static. many trans women move through these states haphazardly throughout their lives. the effect of this is that trans women live in heightened states of traumatization at all times, constantly either facing violence or living in the fear of it.
here’s a thing: trans women are more likely to kill themselves than to reach transition.
here’s another thing: 40% of trans women attempt suicide, and this only counts the ones who’ve made it to the point of coming out and who’ve survived. who knows how many sisters we’ve lost who’ve been unable to get there, or whose stories have been written out of existence.
here’s another thing: 90% of trans women are sexually assaulted in their lives. the majority of trans women are targeted for childhood sexual abuse.
here’s another thing: most trans women report decreased violence on entering a stage of passing as cis women. most trans women agree that being read as a failed-man (pre-transition, most cis people can intuitively pick out who are secretly trans women and target them for social and interpersonal abuse) or a trans woman or even being known as a trans woman increases rates of violence in our lives.